Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

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Tommy
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Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by Tommy » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:20 pm

Hi all, Tobias Banzhaf started this thread in the guestbook, and I thought that I'd move the discussion over (and split it into two parts). This part is only about whether the behaviour described should be legal or not.

Thread history:
Tobias Banzhaf wrote: Helloo dear sweeper friends!

My question: isn't there any clone that supports the SHIFT-key behaviour of Windows7-Minesweeper?

That is, SHIFT + left click = right click
-> it's very cool, I'm pretty faster plus I assume some healthy brain cells connection stuff due to left/right hand interaction

anyone knows??
big deal to implement into a clone as optional feature?
Tobias Banzhaf wrote: ah and I forgot: SHIFT + left click = chording (only on numbers) so in principle you use only left clicks and SHIFT is your NF / Flagging - Switcher
c. wrote: Of the official ones, only MSX supports that.
Michael Gottlieb wrote: My instinct would be to say that this is a new change to the game mechanics and shouldn't be official (like the ability to chord with a single left click, or a guaranteed opening at the start). I would like to see what people like ewq/tommy/damien think about this.
[name removed] wrote: welcome back, tobi. michael: this is a difficult question. one could argue that it doesn't make the game easier than the original winmine, since one more button has to be pressed for a right click. as long as this is the only way right clicks are done it is basically the same as using 1 keyboard key per kind of click. or one could argue like you, that it changes the game too much. however, you'd need to explain why it is a new change to the game mechanics and therefore shouldn't be legal to get me to agree with your instinct. i'm not sure whether it really gives an advantage over using the right mouse button.
Tobias Banzhaf wrote: Hi [name removed]! -> MSX doesnt, cause SHIFT + left click on 'unexplored' field there is a try-to-chord instead of a flag.
Tommy wrote: @Tobias Banzhaf, welcome back! I have to say - playing like this sounds like a really bad idea. The fact that you spread your clicks over two mouse buttons is a huge advantage of FL. Therefore - sorry to say that, but it's not something I'll build into vsweep any time soon. The time I'd spend doing that is time that I could also spend working on other parts of vsweep, or scoreganizer, and I have WAY more ideas than I have time to implement at the moment. Unless of course, we decide that it is legal, and a noticeable amount of people want to use it. Regarding that - do old versions of winmine support it?
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qqwref
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by qqwref » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:40 am

[name removed] brought up the question of whether this is an advantage. I don't think it is. However, I think the question of changing the game mechanics is not related to whether we let people get an advantage, but instead, to whether we change what Minesweeper means. Any significant change in the control of the game means we are now considering some kind of expanded Minesweeper game. I think this is a significant change because (1) it would mean you can now perform any action with only one finger on each hand, as opposed to needing two fingers on one hand (for FL anyway); and (2) perhaps more importantly it would mean that chording involves the same motion as flagging, which is in a way easier than the 1.5-click thing we have now.

What I am getting at here is something very different from, say, the Elmar Syndrome argument - not that we should restrict anything new that makes the game easier, but that we should restrict anything new that changes the control of how we play through a board. Whether it is an advantage doesn't matter. For instance, for NF players, having squares open on left click provides an advantage of, at maximum, less than 0.1 seconds on any board (assuming people who are equally good at both styles) since you can just replace any "press, release" with "release, press" and vice versa. It's a different motion but not an easier one. So it's no real advantage, but it's a change in the control of the game, and should thus be unacceptable for official versions. Same argument here, but a bit more complex because of the chording.
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KamilSaper
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by KamilSaper » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:23 am

I do agree with qq :D
0.49 - 7.03 - 31.13
NF: 0.49 - 7.03 - 31.51

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:05 pm

Tobias Banzhaf wrote: ah and I forgot: SHIFT + left click = chording (only on numbers) so in principle you use only left clicks and SHIFT is your NF / Flagging - Switcher
i somehow overread this line the first time. having reread everything i agre with qq.

(about the nf paragraph: the only occasion on which "press" would save time over "release" is the very last click.)
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by Banzhaf » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:32 pm

qqwref wrote: not that we should restrict anything new that makes the game easier, but that we should restrict anything new that changes the control of how we play through a board.
Why that?

What's the purpose of restricting new changes of the game?
To make sure a 42 from year 2000 is the same achievement as a 42 from 2020, not?
So I would understand the intention not to let the game become easier.
But if a change wouldn't make it easier, where's the problem? There is no use in creating an artistic precept not to change the game. Don't forget

the change is already done, by the developers. Future sweeper generations will be used to future MS - to this shift key function as well as to guaranteed opening at first click - what makes MS a way better game without the design failure of odd clicking around in the beginning.

Who profits most of such progressions? Us, the addicted, the maniacs! All - pros and hobby gamers!
And us of all people would deny that change that'd be to our advantage???

Minesweeper community should be open for everybody interested without forcing him to adapt to archaic game versions, or it won't be THE minesweeper community forever.


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qqwref
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by qqwref » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:10 pm

Banzhaf wrote:Future sweeper generations will be used to future MS - to this shift key function as well as to guaranteed opening at first click [...] Minesweeper community should be open for everybody interested without forcing him to adapt to archaic game versions
This is not a war between "future MS" and "archaic game versions" - the game has moved in two different directions. On one hand you have some random developers hired by Microsoft who have changed the game in what I suppose is an effort to make it more fun - they now have this shift key thing, a guaranteed opening at the start, easy cheating with UPK, a focus on completion percentage, and probably several other things. They may even still have board cycles and timer issues - I don't think that has been investigated since we switched to clones.

Of course, on the other hand we have our OWN developers who love the game and who seriously play it for speed, and they have added other things - many statistics, exact decimal time, cheat-proof replays, and so on - but without changing the basic and effective controls of the game. As far as we are concerned with solving the game quickly, in a way that prevents cheating, our version is obviously better. It's not perfect, but the game that comes with Windows now is comparatively worthless for serious competition. It's just like the rule difference between the version of football/soccer that kids play in the park, and the official version played by professionals and serious enthusiasts. Just because some people will randomly choose their own rules doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to decide what is best for expert players.
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CBright
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by CBright » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:20 am

I don't like that this breaks minesweeper behaviour consistency. On the other hand, if there aren't specific rules about how input is entered perhaps one could set their OS to recognize ctrl+click as right click.

By the way, double (left) click also acts as a chord on windows 7, so you would also have to address that.

Banzhaf
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by Banzhaf » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:42 am

Well, to make the BEST MS version you could unite all statistic features of MS clones and the innovations of newer official MS versions.

I repeat, the question is why should one play a worse MS version?

To fit in the rules of a community I would have fun to be involved in is not a sufficient reason for me.
I wanna play for most fun. If there's a group of people that say 'not like that' my respond is "ciao babiieeees" and I'm for sure not the first and not last person thinking like this.

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Tommy
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by Tommy » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:26 am

The thing is... With the amount of crap they included in their winmine rewrite, taking that as even remotely authoritative is a huge mistake. So, apart from whether we want to make changes to the game in the first place, the question becomes - is this a worthwhile addition to the game, to the extent that we want to implement it in clones. Clonemakers (that includes me) are people who contribute to the community in their free time. Which is fine - I personally love doing that. BUT I don't want to waste my time with changes of marginal value, either. Especially as I also work on scoreganizer.

I also have a huge problem with clone inconsistency - everyone should play under the same conditions.

That said - if you find the idea so important, contribute it to freesweeper and arbiter in cheat mode. Since vsweep isn't open source, I'd possibly take that as a reason to implement it as well, and if it became legal, I would definitely do so.
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Banzhaf
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by Banzhaf » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:20 pm

Tommy wrote:With the amount of crap they included in their winmine rewrite, taking that as even remotely authoritative is a huge mistake.
Yeah, of course you cannot do that, UPK is - the name says it - unfair.
Tommy wrote:the question becomes - is this a worthwhile addition to the game, to the extent that we want to implement it in clones.
Tommy wrote:I also have a huge problem with clone inconsistency - everyone should play under the same conditions.
In my eyes we have a conflict here between worthwhile addition and consistency.
It's not that I want at all costs a feature included in the clones that is apparently used by no one except of me.
1% reads minesweeper help and of those perhaps 1% tries out the shift key. ;)
But 100% (with present windows) play with guaranteed openings and don't know it different. Now they want to join community and are confronted with the demand to play an unarguable worse minesweeper. Put yourself in their place.

In sports exists the same matter. But records from middle 20th century are - though worse in comparison to records from nowadays - still worshipped. People know times were different, equipment has progressed and so on.
It simply feels for me like we unnecessarily make ourselves life hard.

Wise blade of grass bends in the wind and doesn't get destroyed.

Oh, and be sure I (well, most people) appreciate everybody putting energy in a thing to the benefit of others, like your clone work. :)

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:37 pm

some of my friends at uni play minesweeper. they started with the win7 version and still use it most of the time. the only feature the missed in our clones was the full screen mode. the lack of openings on the first click is a minor issue and is on the same level as filtering/not generating boards whose 3bv is below the minimums.

the argument of consistency can be used both ways. one could argue that we should stay consistent with the latest winmine. or that we should stay consisten with the old, actual, minesweeper.

instead of (or after) discussing whether a specific feature should be implemented in clone we should try to come up with clear and concise definitions for how the 3 kinds of clicks may be done. i'd suggest that 1 input device may be used for left and right click each, that these have to be distinct and that a double click may either be a third input deice or a combination of left and right click. from that point on it would be a matter of how one defines input device. a physical input device like a keyboard key, a mouse button, a foot pedal? or a combination of input devices?
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Judith Sunrise
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by Judith Sunrise » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:28 pm

I don't think that the "loss" of the guaranteed opening is that much of a hindrance for new players. I started sweeping seriously last year and was used to XP version. Also meaning I "grew up" with 9x9 beg grid. So what?!

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by thefinerminer » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:39 pm

Curtis has always been good at making MSX do what the original Minesweeper game does. IMHO, our job is not to gradually create a new game by making little changes to the gameplay, and it is definitely not our goal to copy everything the non-original programmers change in new Microsoft releases. The original game lets you shift-leftclick to chord (as did earlier games that Minesweeper copied this feature from), so I see no problem with this.

Btw, IMHO adding video recording and stats is totally separate from gameplay, and is OK.

Some thoughts:

1. I realise we did not copy bugs from the original (all bugs were accidental timer problems though, not gameplay rules).
2. Ranking rules (3bv limits etc) are not minesweeper game rules. (Rodrigo put 3bv limits in Clone, but he wanted to do this so all Clone games qualify for the ranking).
3. We removed the XYZZY cheat from the original. IMHO this is same as #2. I think it is OK for clones to have this cheat, but they need a way to prove it was not used (eg if cheat is used video is marked as Cheat) so scores can be accepted on the ranking. I would actually prefer this instead of not having it.

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord legal?

Post by qqwref » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:20 pm

thefinerminer wrote:The original game lets you shift-leftclick to chord (as did earlier games that Minesweeper copied this feature from), so I see no problem with this.
Good point, I never noticed this. However the win7 behavior allows both this and flagging with the same input, which means you can clear most or all of the board efficiently by holding shift and doing a lot of left clicks. I think it's an interesting question whether this is an unfair advantage over people who got their records with early or currently official versions of the game.
NF player. Best scores 1-10-39.

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