Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

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Tommy
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Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Tommy » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:23 pm

Hi all, Tobias Banzhaf started this thread in the guestbook, and I thought that I'd move the discussion over (and split it into two parts). This thread is only about things that don't fit into
http://www.minesweeper.info/forum/viewt ... f=12&t=227 . Have you tried this, did you like it?

Thread history:
Tobias Banzhaf wrote: Helloo dear sweeper friends!

My question: isn't there any clone that supports the SHIFT-key behaviour of Windows7-Minesweeper?

That is, SHIFT + left click = right click
-> it's very cool, I'm pretty faster plus I assume some healthy brain cells connection stuff due to left/right hand interaction

anyone knows??
big deal to implement into a clone as optional feature?
Tobias Banzhaf wrote: ah and I forgot: SHIFT + left click = chording (only on numbers) so in principle you use only left clicks and SHIFT is your NF / Flagging - Switcher
c. wrote: Of the official ones, only MSX supports that.
Michael Gottlieb wrote: My instinct would be to say that this is a new change to the game mechanics and shouldn't be official (like the ability to chord with a single left click, or a guaranteed opening at the start). I would like to see what people like ewq/tommy/damien think about this.
[name removed] wrote: welcome back, tobi. michael: this is a difficult question. one could argue that it doesn't make the game easier than the original winmine, since one more button has to be pressed for a right click. as long as this is the only way right clicks are done it is basically the same as using 1 keyboard key per kind of click. or one could argue like you, that it changes the game too much. however, you'd need to explain why it is a new change to the game mechanics and therefore shouldn't be legal to get me to agree with your instinct. i'm not sure whether it really gives an advantage over using the right mouse button.
Tobias Banzhaf wrote: Hi [name removed]! -> MSX doesnt, cause SHIFT + left click on 'unexplored' field there is a try-to-chord instead of a flag.
Tommy wrote: @Tobias Banzhaf, welcome back! I have to say - playing like this sounds like a really bad idea. The fact that you spread your clicks over two mouse buttons is a huge advantage of FL. Therefore - sorry to say that, but it's not something I'll build into vsweep any time soon. The time I'd spend doing that is time that I could also spend working on other parts of vsweep, or scoreganizer, and I have WAY more ideas than I have time to implement at the moment. Unless of course, we decide that it is legal, and a noticeable amount of people want to use it. Regarding that - do old versions of winmine support it?
Don't anthropomorphize computers - they don't like it.

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Tjips
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Tjips » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:08 pm

To be honest, this doesn't really feel like a very useful configuration. I will indulge it for a moment though...

The first action that comes to my mind when thinking about the mechanics of this idea is the flag-and-chord. For clarity: What I'm referring to is when a player depresses the RMB to flag a mine and keeps it depressed while performing a chain of "double-clicks" by depressing and releasing the LMB on a number of numbers around the placed flag. (For the record, this is what I mean when I say 'chording'... I mean c'mon, it's a chord of double-clicks... :P. And yes, I know 'chording' comes from the musical analogue, but this is how I first understood it...).

If we weigh the two methods up against each other we see that they are slightly different. In the traditional framework the whole thing starts with the placement of a flag, after which the LMB is depressed ASAP and released once the pointer is over the desired number. In this Shift-key framework, however, the whole thing is initiated by depressing the Shift key, which does nothing, and then clicking the LMB to place the flag. Now, even assuming that the flag is placed on depression of the LMB, there is still an ugly inefficiency in this method. This alone is enough for me to completely disregard this method as this action is the one I perform by far the most...

As for it being a nice switcher between NF and FL, I think it simply adds an unnecessary extra overhead to FL. When flagging, the rewards of fewer clicks are to some extent lessened by the larger amount of coordination needed to effective juggle two mouse buttons. This coordination overhead leads to slightly lower sustainable cl/s, allowing NF to gain a little of the ground it lost to FL due to FL's greater effeciency-of-clicks. This extra step in the flagging process simply adds another overhead to this one IMO...
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Exp: 140055249834355336357264746443955277014822625680974475320364702381803619892657792049596418323789908370400 (1.4e104)
Int: 13115156192346373485000211099954895788134532256 (1.3e46) &
Beg: 18934455246 (1.9e10)
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by qqwref » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:45 am

There's also an issue you didn't point out: when the only difference between "flag this" and "open this" is whether the shift key is depressed or not, it's a lot easier to make mistakes and blast (or worse, misflag :lol:). I'm sure getting used to this control scheme would help a bit, but the danger is always there that a mistake on the exact timing of pressing/releasing the shift key could end the game. At high speed I can see this being a real problem. With the current system, the physical motions for flag, do a bunch of chords, and open a square are quite different; but with the shift system, the right hand is always doing a left click or a series of left clicks, and the left hand's shift timing is all that separates the different actions. It's just my opinion, but to me this method seems substantially easier to make a fatal mistake with.
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Banzhaf » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:34 pm

Every player is different.

Perhaps one doesn't like to use the keyboard at all and prefers sticking to the mouse alone.
For me and maybe others it's the smoothest gameplay, feels more like 'flying over the field' :D

Coordination between left hand / right hand is much more independent than forefinger / middle finger.
So there is no disadvantage by misflagging, once you get used to it.
I always liked NF most for the pureness of left clicks. Now I can have with Flagging, too. :lol:


The only disadvantage I experienced is that you cannot any longer do blind-chording for a click on an unexplored field will put a flag.

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Tjips » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:55 am

Well, Banzhaf, if it works for you then have fun :). I must admit that the point about it separating the clicks between two hands makes it an interesting thing to consider trying out. I have one question though: Is this configuration in some way better than simply having the shift key act like the RMB?

I don't know whether a program can distinguish between the depression and release of keys in the same way it can for mouse buttons, but assigning my RMB to a key for my left hand to use sounds like a fun challenge :D. Only thing for me is that I am really used to playing with only one hand. I even have a bald patch on my left elbow from always leaning on it :oops: :D . Anyhow, glad you got into the discussion ;) .
The number of minesweeper boards:
Exp: 140055249834355336357264746443955277014822625680974475320364702381803619892657792049596418323789908370400 (1.4e104)
Int: 13115156192346373485000211099954895788134532256 (1.3e46) &
Beg: 18934455246 (1.9e10)
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Banzhaf » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:22 am

Tjips wrote:I have one question though: Is this configuration in some way better than simply having the shift key act like the RMB?
haha good idea! :lol: I'd like to try out that.

_

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Tommy
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Tommy » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:30 am

Incidentally, what does Shift-LMB_Press(Flag)-Unshift-LMB_Release(Chord) do? Does that work as I just described it?
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Banzhaf » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:11 pm

Tommy wrote:Incidentally, what does Shift-LMB_Press(Flag)-Unshift-LMB_Release(Chord) do? Does that work as I just described it?
That's just an usual LMB. Flag is put by releasing.

Shift-LMB release is both flagging and chording depending on whether clicked on a number or not.

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by computronium » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:39 am

qqwref wrote:There's also an issue you didn't point out: when the only difference between "flag this" and "open this" is whether the shift key is depressed or not, it's a lot easier to make mistakes and blast (or worse, misflag :lol:). I'm sure getting used to this control scheme would help a bit, but the danger is always there that a mistake on the exact timing of pressing/releasing the shift key could end the game. At high speed I can see this being a real problem. With the current system, the physical motions for flag, do a bunch of chords, and open a square are quite different; but with the shift system, the right hand is always doing a left click or a series of left clicks, and the left hand's shift timing is all that separates the different actions. It's just my opinion, but to me this method seems substantially easier to make a fatal mistake with.
I actually find it quite the opposite.

Some caveats before I attempt to make a case for the shift key -- I've been away from FL for a long while now, especially since I usually play on my phone and have yet to find a good system for playing FL on it. And I'm not familiar with any of the newer funky schemes mentioned in this thread that involve clicking on the mine and releasing to clear, or anything like that (though they sound cool).

But I used to play FL on bog-standard Windows XP and Vista, and got quite proficient using the shift key method. It probably comes down to personal preference, but it seemed a better system for me. The shift key acts like a mode-switch, and when it's pressed (and you are in chording mode) you are completely safe as long as you marked the mines correctly. (Try it if you don't believe me -- you can only chord on cleared squares containing a number next to a marked mine.) This allows you to be a lot more haphazard in your chording/clearing. Then when you're done with that, you release and flag or clear with right or left clicks.

The cost is only a half a motion (a press or a release, and with your free hand) when switching between modes. Some of the new methods probably can get you better cl/s rates, but without them the shift key method has to be pretty comparable. I personally like having the "safe chording" mode that allows for some sloppiness, but more accurate players would likely find it less useful.

EDIT: My fingers remember how I play better than my conscious brain! It's the Ctrl key on Windows, and I keep it down to flag AND chord/clear, and release it only to probe new uncleared squares. So I'm safe during the former (as long as the flag placements are correct), and only in danger during the latter.

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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by Tjips » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:30 am

Hahaha. Well if the freedom to be sloppy is what you're after then it's probably a perfectly good option :D. Personally, I don't need that safety as I've learned to not only use the right clicks where they're needed, but also to catch mistakes before they cause a blast without significant loss of momentum. This kind of thing is true for most fast sweepers these days. In the time before players like Dion, KAmil and [name removed]the style of ["safe-ing" the mines and dbl-clicking like crazy] was relatively prominent, but it reached its limits. Sure, at lower speeds what you're saying is very relevant and valid, but at higher speeds the perks you propose lead to trained-in bad habits.

P.S.: I really don't like posting posts like this anymore. It feels as if all I ever do is tell people they're wrong. Do I come off as a douchebag on here?
The number of minesweeper boards:
Exp: 140055249834355336357264746443955277014822625680974475320364702381803619892657792049596418323789908370400 (1.4e104)
Int: 13115156192346373485000211099954895788134532256 (1.3e46) &
Beg: 18934455246 (1.9e10)
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by qqwref » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:44 am

For what it's worth, I did end up making a javascript clone that allows the shift+click functionality. (It also has a few other non-official features because it's designed for speedrun-style racing against people who use the win7 version.)

If you're interested: http://mzrg.com/js/mine/SRLver.html
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Re: Win7-like Shift+LMB=RMB/chord - opinions?

Post by computronium » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:17 am

Tjips wrote:P.S.: I really don't like posting posts like this anymore. It feels as if all I ever do is tell people they're wrong. Do I come off as a douchebag on here?
Not at all, speaking for myself. Especially since you were responding to a post where I was saying someone else was wrong :) Besides, the criticisms of the shift-key technique I had pretty much already copped to. It's not something I suspect the top players will ever use; it's just handy for people like myself without particularly adept fine motor skills (seriously, I've been playing guitar for close to 30 years and still can pretty much only strum).

Qqwref, that feature definitely makes yours my favourite online version :D

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