The Clone must go

Area to discuss development and bugs of official clones (Clone, Arbiter, MSX, Viennasweeper)

Must the clone go?

Poll ended at Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:44 pm

Yes! It shall remain legal until June 30th
21
88%
Yes! But June 30th is too early (specify in your reply)
1
4%
No!
2
8%
 
Total votes: 24

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Tommy
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The Clone must go

Post by Tommy » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:20 pm

The following was posted on the guestbook today:
April 3rd 2013
05:25:09 AM
Name:
Janis
Best expert:
HOPSING 50.2 RT -> 49.138 RT
Comments:
On a 178 3bv board!
With the following guestbook comment replies:
Janis says:
Nevermind. Something is up with my timer on clone. I just timed it with my phone, and the timer is slow. I just got a 45 second game on a 187 3BV too, and noticed that the replay timer went much slower than it should have. I don't know what is causing this or anything though... strange.
Posted on : 2013-04-03 05:36:04
Janis says:
It definitely wasn't like this before.
Posted on : 2013-04-03 05:38:09
Janis says:
Playing on Arbiter now, and timer works fine. Hopsing with a huge jump into sub-50 territory was ridiculous. I didn't even feel like I was playing fast, and I wasn't. Timed it with cellphone, came up to mid-60 seconds.
Posted on : 2013-04-03 07:17:10
Lucas Pena says:
?????????????????
Posted on : 2013-04-03 07:27:16
And therefore, I am about to respond there with the following (in that order so that I can link here for discussion):
This is getting ridiculous. Apart from what Janis just posted: There is another bug that is almost as bad, if not actually worse, that I don't want to discuss in detail (yet) for security reasons.

I know that the clone is really widespread, and that many people would have to switch.

However, despite all the features that the clone has - it's not that far from winmine in terms of security. Yeah, it's actually that bad.

We (a small group of trustworthy sweepers that know each other in real life, and/or are clone maintainers) have talked about the problem and tried to reach Rodrigo. I have talked to brazilian sweepers, organized his current email address, and written him an email explaining the problem. He did not respond.

So, the clone:
- is not being maintained anymore
- most likely won't be anymore, since it is closed source
- has at least two huge security holes, one of which is now semi-known (people know what to try to reproduce).

I can't remain completely silent any longer. If Rodrigo doesn't appear after all and fixes the clone (or passes it on), we must stop using it.

My proposal is the following:
- The clone shall remain legal until June 30th, 2013 23:59 GMT, ie, clone scores may be submitted until then to allow for transition.
- Damien could use his huge collection of email addresses to write an email to as many sweepers as possible, announce it on the front page of ms.info, and generally contact as many people as humanly possible.
- I myself would write to all users of scoreganizer to warn them as well.
- We would try to reach admins of sites like mslive and get them to do the same.
- The local communities (I'm thinking mostly, but not only, of china and russia) would be notified seperately in their respective language by members of these communities that are active here as well.
- Use of the clone would be strongly discouraged even before the deadline. Kamil, I'm looking at you. I trust you, I've seen you play in real life, but it would be awesome if world records weren't set on a version that is known to have these issues.
- After the clone is illegal, the other bug would be disclosed.
- Actually, will be. The bug was found more than a year ago now. And I can't live with nothing happening forever. I'm pretty sure that someone else already found out about this - it isn't _that_ hard. The point will come where I will refuse altogether to hide this bug any longer.
So... discuss!
Don't anthropomorphize computers - they don't like it.

EWQMinesweeper
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:36 pm

let's kill the clone! i agree with tkolar's post.
„Das perlt jetzt aber richtig über, ma sagn. Mach ma' noch'n Bier! Wie heißt das? Biddä! Bidddää! Biddddäää! Reiner Weltladen!“

Cryslon
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by Cryslon » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:17 pm

I support banning the Clone if Rodrigo doesn't fix the bug and doesn't give access to its source.

But what's special about June 30th? Aren't Clone's vulnerabilities like "funny mode" known for a long enough time already? How the additional two months of Clone problems awareness change the situation?
Last edited by Cryslon on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cryslon
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by Cryslon » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:21 pm

del
Go IRC! (try mibbit)

EWQMinesweeper
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:51 pm

Cryslon wrote:I support banning the Clone if Rodrigo doesn't fix the bug and doesn't give access to its source.
the existence of the "bug" has been known for long enough and all clonemakers were contacted. rodrigo didn't reply. funny mode has been known for even longer.
Cryslon wrote:But what's special about June 30th? Aren't Clone's vulnerabilities like "funny mode" known for a long enough time already? How the additional two months of Clone problems awareness change the situation?
30th june provides almost 3 months time to inform sweepers who use clone. like tkolar wrote it is a transition period after which we plan to reveal the "bug" to the public.
„Das perlt jetzt aber richtig über, ma sagn. Mach ma' noch'n Bier! Wie heißt das? Biddä! Bidddää! Biddddäää! Reiner Weltladen!“

dg211
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:19 pm

Re: The Clone must go

Post by dg211 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:05 pm

I agree totally. At the time we discussed the original bug, I suggested exactly this - set a deadline by which it must be fixed and actively maintained, or no longer allowed. And it's not like there is any shortage of alternative clones.

Janis
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by Janis » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:34 pm

I'm never using clone again at least. But I wonder why this happened now, and has never occurred before.

I totally agree though, you can't have an official clone that doesn't function properly.

qqwref
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:17 pm

Re: The Clone must go

Post by qqwref » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:25 pm

Yes, get rid of it. And someone should make a better official clone for Chinese players before then. Perhaps a version of Arb or Freesweeper.

I, for one, would like to know all about the security holes and glitches (after the 30th of course).
NF player. Best scores 1-10-39.

gacord
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by gacord » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:02 am

I don't know about bugs of clone2007
I still think clone2007 is the best version to watch videos though I only play on Arbiter :roll:

EWQMinesweeper
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:01 pm

gacord wrote:I don't know about bugs of clone2007
I still think clone2007 is the best version to watch videos though I only play on Arbiter :roll:
clone is nice to watch replays with. the bugs will be revealed as soons as clone is banned.
„Das perlt jetzt aber richtig über, ma sagn. Mach ma' noch'n Bier! Wie heißt das? Biddä! Bidddää! Biddddäää! Reiner Weltladen!“

xiao01wei
Posts: 2
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by xiao01wei » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:48 am

As a Chinese minesweeper player, whatever the version what I play, only if Jason(Zhang Shen Jia) is persuaded,and then change it on saolei.net. :shock:

gacord
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by gacord » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:12 am

xiao01wei wrote:As a Chinese minesweeper player, whatever the version what I play, only if Jason(Zhang Shen Jia) is persuaded,and then change it on saolei.net. :shock:
Yes! Which means only clone 0.97 is the official version for us.

gacord
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by gacord » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:15 am

EWQMinesweeper wrote:
gacord wrote:I don't know about bugs of clone2007
I still think clone2007 is the best version to watch videos though I only play on Arbiter :roll:
clone is nice to watch replays with. the bugs will be revealed as soons as clone is banned.
clone is fantastic to watch replays :D

EWQMinesweeper
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:59 pm

gacord wrote:
xiao01wei wrote:As a Chinese minesweeper player, whatever the version what I play, only if Jason(Zhang Shen Jia) is persuaded,and then change it on saolei.net. :shock:
Yes! Which means only clone 0.97 is the official version for us.
tough luck i would say.
gacord wrote:clone is fantastic to watch replays :D
that's about it. good for replays but not good for playing.
„Das perlt jetzt aber richtig über, ma sagn. Mach ma' noch'n Bier! Wie heißt das? Biddä! Bidddää! Biddddäää! Reiner Weltladen!“

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Tommy
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by Tommy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:29 pm

gacord wrote:
EWQMinesweeper wrote:
gacord wrote:I don't know about bugs of clone2007
I still think clone2007 is the best version to watch videos though I only play on Arbiter :roll:
clone is nice to watch replays with. the bugs will be revealed as soons as clone is banned.
clone is fantastic to watch replays :D
True. But: Nobody will ever stop you from using the clone to watch replays anyway ;) It's just about making games played on the clone not count for rankings anymore.
gacord wrote:
xiao01wei wrote:As a Chinese minesweeper player, whatever the version what I play, only if Jason(Zhang Shen Jia) is persuaded,and then change it on saolei.net. :shock:
Yes! Which means only clone 0.97 is the official version for us.
The problem is, that means that you are using a really bad version. Wouldn't it be easier not to use the ranking on saolei.net anymore (you could still use the rest of the website, you wouldn't have to lose the community), if Zhang Shen Jia is gone and doesn't do anything anymore?

minesweeper.info has a country ranking for china. And you wouldn't have to worry about playing on scoreganizer anymore, since there is no problem with using viennasweeper.

I understand that the language barrier is a real problem, and that it is great to have a chinese site for all the people that don't speak english. Unfortunately, when I created scoreganizer, I was in a hurry, so I didn't think of translation - so, in order to translate it to chinese, I'd have to do some programming work first. But that is definitely something that I want to do as soon as I have time.

I also don't know how easy it would be to translate minesweeper.info (at least the menus and rankings) - Damien should be able to give more info here.

But it would be great if we could be more friendly to people who don't speak English in general, not just so that you won't have to use saolei.net anymore. I'll start a thread about that now.

edit: http://www.minesweeper.info/forum/viewt ... =242#p1653 ;-)
Don't anthropomorphize computers - they don't like it.

qqwref
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by qqwref » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:25 pm

I think maybe some Chinese sweepers will see this as something the English-speaking community is doing to push the Chinese-speaking community away. It's important to be clear that that isn't true at all. Instead, I would say this: we have discovered major security flaws in Clone, to the point that we can't trust it to prevent cheating or give reliable results anymore, and it is impossible to fix these problems. It really is too bad that Saolei only accepts Clone scores, but that's not our fault and we would fix it if we could. We're trying hard to make it so the official clones can be easily used by Chinese sweepers.

Hopefully someone can translate this and explain it to the Chinese community... I want them to be on our side with this too. The last thing we need is two MS communities who don't accept each other's scores.
NF player. Best scores 1-10-39.

MichaelD
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Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:41 pm

Re: The Clone must go

Post by MichaelD » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:01 pm

I didn't know anything about the flaws in Clone until [name removed]'s facebook message. Based on what I read here, I think it has to go.

Cryslon
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by Cryslon » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:17 am

qqwref wrote:we have discovered major security flaws in Clone
Actually, the Chinese community discovered the "funny mode" bug. I'm pretty sure somebody from China discovered the bug as well.
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qqwref
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by qqwref » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:21 pm

Cryslon wrote:
qqwref wrote:we have discovered major security flaws in Clone
Actually, the Chinese community discovered the "funny mode" bug. I'm pretty sure somebody from China discovered the bug as well.
I didn't mean "we" as in "us amazing English speakers", but rather "the Minesweeper community". Sorry for the confusion.
NF player. Best scores 1-10-39.

thefinerminer
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by thefinerminer » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:34 pm

As far as I know, the Chinese ranking does not accept Clone 2007, it only accepts Clone 0.97 (because there is a bug where Clone 2007 and 0.97 videos get corrupted depending on what Chinese version of Windows you use). Clone 0.97 was banned about 5 years ago, we just kept hoping Rodrigo would fix it.

To ban it, we need to do some serious work: Add the Chinese.lng file to the Arbiter file (and some other languages, [name removed]is doing German, Babz is doing French), create some pages in Chinese (how to get on the ranking, ranking rules, a members area in Chinese, and a country ranking that shows Chinese language names at a minimum)....

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Tommy
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by Tommy » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:30 pm

This poll has been running for 10 days, and I can't see any new votes being cast. Time to act?
Don't anthropomorphize computers - they don't like it.

EWQMinesweeper
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:25 pm

with only 14 votes being cast? plus rilian, who dropped by on irc last week and whose opinion should be clear.

i would have expected a much stronger outcry that people want to keep clone. let's wait another 2 weeks until the end of the month. you can use this time to inform more sweepers about the matter and ask them to cast their votes.
„Das perlt jetzt aber richtig über, ma sagn. Mach ma' noch'n Bier! Wie heißt das? Biddä! Bidddää! Biddddäää! Reiner Weltladen!“

CBright
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by CBright » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:38 am

To make sure everyone is on the same page, here's the story so far: The bug was found in early March 2012, and Rodrigo was emailed shortly afterward, but he didn't respond. Because of the seriousness of the bug, I made additional efforts to contact him and succeeded in early May 2012. At that time he told me that this was the first time he had heard of the bug, since he doesn't check his email. He said he would look into it, but I haven't heard from him since. I'll make another effort to contact him and see what's up.
EWQMinesweeper wrote:with only 14 votes being cast? plus rilian, who dropped by on irc last week and whose opinion should be clear.
LOL, what a hoot. There should be a public IRC log.
thefinerminer wrote:To ban it, we need to do some serious work: Add the Chinese.lng file to the Arbiter file
Why is the clone so popular in China anyway? It hasn't been translated has it?

EWQMinesweeper
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by EWQMinesweeper » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:05 pm

curtis: i have the chatlog but there wasn't anything spectacular. rilian had nymike and me guess who he is, i eventually told him about this discussion but since he isn't developing arbiter anymore i didn't comment his wild guesses what the bug might be.

clone is popular among chinese sweepers because saolei.net only accepts .mvf files.
„Das perlt jetzt aber richtig über, ma sagn. Mach ma' noch'n Bier! Wie heißt das? Biddä! Bidddää! Biddddäää! Reiner Weltladen!“

scarrabee
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Re: The Clone must go

Post by scarrabee » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:54 pm

switched last week to arbiter before I knew the bugs, so clone may go for me.
(PS : just set my first non clone record, yay)

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